Crop Sensor is an Upgrade Path to Full Frame?

[Rose]

It's with Cotswold cameras... http://www.cotswoldcameras.co.uk/canon-eos-5d-mark-3-body-97-p.asp

[Mike Farley]

It's with Cotswold cameras... http://www.cotswoldcameras.co.uk/canon-eos-5d-mark-3-body-97-p.asp

As you are probably aware, they are selling non official imports. Nothing wrong with that, although I would want to check the position if the camera has to be recalled for a manufacturing defect. That's something which is less likely to affect Canon admittedly, as opposed to Nikon, but no one is immune. I would expect any such problem to be resolved under the terms of the three year warranty, which should be insurance backed rather than relying on the seller remaining in business.

[Rose]

Yes I'm aware of that

[Mike Farley]

I had not heard of Cotswold Cameras before, although I am aware that there are a number of companies in this business. Do you have any experience of using them or know someone who has made a purchase?

[Mike Farley]

Looking for more information about Cotswold Cameras, I came across this post from the owner about how the company is structured and somehow manages to avoid VAT regulations. Given that the company has been operating for six years presumably without attracting the attentions of HMRC and the owner has no concerns about making the statement, this would appear to be legal although I have no idea how it works.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/thread ... st-6287996

[GrahamL]

I can only add that HDEW does supply a VAT invoice, and generally their prices are hard to beat Nikon-wise. But you may only get the full manufacturing registration document on their non-grey products. (Moved from half frame to full frame over Christmas via an HDEW camera and lens purchase, the camera was grey, the lens not - fingers crossed!). On the plus side you can pick the purchases up directly from their office near Carshalton.

Graham

[Rose]

Interesting, thank you Graham

I see that Cotswold Cameras' FAQs state that their price "includes any applicable VAT, duties and other costs"

I have pretty much decided against buying a 7m2 now as I think the 5m3 will fulfill my needs perfectly well, but I will get a 1.4 extender to provide a bit of flexibility with my 70-200 and 100-400 zooms. It would be tempting to wait to see what the promised 5m4 will offer... but by the time that becomes available in the UK (and that might not be till the autumn) I will have retired and be on a reduced income, and the resale value of my 5m2 will have decreased significantly, making my ability to purchase a 5m4 less likely.

[Mike Farley]

I can only add that HDEW does supply a VAT invoice, and generally their prices are hard to beat Nikon-wise. But you may only get the full manufacturing registration document on their non-grey products. (Moved from half frame to full frame over Christmas via an HDEW camera and lens purchase, the camera was grey, the lens not - fingers crossed!). On the plus side you can pick the purchases up directly from their office near Carshalton.

Graham

The HDEW warranty is provided by a company called Xtend Cover and is based in Epsom, being contactable via a Hotmail e-mail account. So far as I can tell, the warranty is only available for products supplied by HDEW so it seems likely that it is part of HDEW rather than being a fully independent company.

My concern about those companies which do not offer a VAT invoice is that they might be operating within a grey area of tax regulations which could be changed at any time. I do not know this for certain, but if the importers are paying the relevant tax and import duties at a lower level than officially imported products that does provide an additional margin to pass on to the customer. If the law changes, import companies could find their business unsustainable and cease trading, with any warranties they have provided directly going with them. On the other hand, the savings made at purchase might still be greater than the cost of any potential repair and the warranty is for a longer period than offered by manufacturers.

Something else to bear in mind with a company based outside of the UK is that your transaction will be conducted according to the laws of that country and your rights might not be the same as here. If there is a dispute which ends up in legal action, the case would be heard abroad. An extreme scenario, admittedly, but something else to bear in mind.

[davidc]

That really is rather extreme though? The notion of legal action taken over a warranty on a camera? Surely if you get a grey import that fails and the warranty isn't honoured it's cheaper to pay to fix it or buy a new one than take legal action? Perhaps a hint of fearmongering

My own experience - I bought my 6D back in March and after a particularly harsh & heavy day using it in a cave, the d-pad and SET button jammed up and stopped working completely. Also, one of the rubber grips has worn through use and the adhesive peeled off. Oh, and the little disc on top of the mode dial fell off in my bag (apparently a common issue on heavily used cameras, albeit the first time I'd seen it).

Bearing in mind I bought my camera from Hong Kong and received it in the UK before bringing it out here, while it technically had warranty I wasn't 100% sure if Canon Singapore would honour it. They did, and fixed it up without question. I also asked what their policy was about fixing "grey imports" and they confirmed that while there is legal provision to enable them to refuse to do it in most countries, they have never had a report of someone with a valid warranty being turned away from any Canon service centre worldwide. Simply put, the guy said reports of warranties not being honoured would be bad for reputation & business, much more so than the cost of actually doing a repair; I compared it to the Nikon fiasco about their faulty cameras and he agreed that bad press costs more than simply honouring it. That does make sense - after all, either Canon would fix it under warranty in HKG and pay for shipping back to me or just do the whole thing in SG at minimal cost. Perhaps this policy is new, but it's certainly very encouraging. And bear in mind that pro-grade kit has international Canon warranty anyway.

The "fault" turned out to be with a tiny little peace of grit stuck under the SET button which jammed the mechanism by the way No doubt from me posing the camera in all sorts of positions to photograph the cave!

So some hard evidence then that the "warranty fear" may not be so pronounced as first thought? I wonder what experiences with other manufacturers people may have had?

As for the question about buying kit from overseas and paying low/no UK tax or duty on it, we've covered that several times before and it really comes down to personal preference! After all, there's no way to distinguish shipped-in kit vs. stuff you bought on holiday and brought back yourselves. While there may be an ethical argument against not declaring/paying duty, anyone who has brought back a souvenir from holiday and not declared it is just as "guilty"

[Mike Farley]

That really is rather extreme though? The notion of legal action taken over a warranty on a camera? Surely if you get a grey import that fails and the warranty isn't honoured it's cheaper to pay to fix it or buy a new one than take legal action? Perhaps a hint of fearmongering

I did say that taking legal action over a faulty camera would be an exceptional occurrence, but it is worthwhile knowing that your consumer rights might be different to what you think, even if you never have to fall back on them. Your experience and the fact that Canon will apparently honour guarantees worldwide is reassuring. Aside from cameras imported as "grey" goods, someone could have legitimately bought camera gear in their own country and then be using it while on an extended stay in another part of the world. Very similar to what has occurred to you when you relocated to Singapore, in fact. It is also worth bearing in mind that most unofficial importers offer a three year warranty, while the standard manufacturer's warranty is usually one year.

For me, the question is not about the morality and/or legality of using an unofficial importer, rather one of understanding the process. I assume that all the companies involved are operating within the law and as much tax and duty is paid to HMRC as is demanded by them. If this were not the case, I doubt that they would stay in business for long or the owners out of jail for that matter. Where a company does not provide a VAT receipt, even though VAT and any applicable duty must have been paid on entry to the country, that leads me to suspect that it has been paid on a lower amount (e.g. the wholesale price) than that charged to the customer, which would account for some of the savings which are possible over and above the manufacturer selling at a lower price in another part of the world.

There is a lot of FUD in respect of unofficial imports, which works to the benefit of the manufacturers and makes getting an explanation problemmatic. I am currently trying to work through the issues, so reports from people I know of their actual experiences are very useful. Thanks to those who have provided their input on this forum, both in this post and elsewhere.