CCC Forum

I read this post on DPReview with interest as both "fallacies" referred to in the article have applied to me. I have always had a crop sensor DSLR and assumed at some stage that I would move on to full frame and bought lenses with that intention, but it never happened. When I was ready to upgrade from a Canon 400D, the 7D seemed a better all round camera than the 5DII, so I bought that instead. Had the 5DIII been available at the time, I probably would have opted for it, but by the time Canon launched it I was happy with the 7D and no longer wanted to invest in more DSLR kit. Canon's conservative approach to upgrading its sensor technology was also a factor in my decision and the 5DIII did not offer enough of an upgrade to justify the purchase.

What I do question is how useful a full frame sensor really is these days given recent technical advances. Yes, there are issues with increased DOF with a smaller sensor and often high ISO performance is not quite as good, but most manufacturers who introduce new systems have implemented smaller sensors. Fuji, Leica and Samsung have all opted for APS-C, as did Canon with its mirrorless EOS-M mount. Olympus and Panasonic went even smaller with the 4/3 sensor, with the Nikon 1 and Pentax Q systems having the tiniest sensors of any interchangeable lens cameras. Only Sony bucked the trend by introducing the A7 range with full frame, but still has an APS-C system as well. Judging by how well the new Samsung NX1 performs, the difference between APS-C and full frame is narrowing. The trade-off between light gathering capability and smaller/lighter camera gear is not such an issue as it once was.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/567827 ... grade-path

Thats an interesting article that roughly sums up my own "fallacy" as it calls it. I thought I would one day upgrade to full frame but it was selling all my APS-C-only lenses and getting their full frame equivalents that has stopped me. I didnt see a way I could gradually move across. Its true that mirrorless cameras change the perspective of my fallacy over the last few years. The improvement of APS-C bodies has also closed the gap in terms of performance as well.

Ultimately, I will continue to shoot with my APS-C Canon 60D until it either breaks or I see a solid reason to upgrade to whatever camera is on the market in future that will meet my requirements.

I think that was definitely the case a few years ago - but no longer. I see the two systems as complimentary, with different strengths. I own a 5D MKII and a 7D, which I use for different purposes. I am about to upgrade both to a 5D MKIII and 7D MkII. (Anyone interested in buying ??) My reasoning is that the way Canon has configured and is marketing the latest versions proves that the cameras are equal in capability but have different functions, like there are two versions of the 1D. The new 7D with its crop sensor, comprehensive autofocus system and faster frame rate is configured for sports and wildlife; and the new 5D's full frame sensor and better low light capability makes it the choice for portraits, landscape etc.

What puzzles me is the 6D... I'm really not sure what it's trying to be, or who it's aimed at !

Rose wrote:
What puzzles me is the 6D... I'm really not sure what it's trying to be, or who it's aimed at !

Well, David Candlish bought one.

I have always considered the 6D to be a "budget" level full frame sensor camera. Build quality is not as good as the 5DIII and the AF is comparatively basic, but it does have a couple of tricks up its sleeve such as GPS and AF to -3 EV which are not matched by the 5DIII.

Rose wrote:I think that was definitely the case a few years ago - but no longer. I see the two systems as complimentary, with different strengths. I own a 5D MKII and a 7D, which I use for different purposes. I am about to upgrade both to a 5D MKIII and 7D MkII. (Anyone interested in buying ??) My reasoning is that the way Canon has configured and is marketing the latest versions proves that the cameras are equal in capability but have different functions, like there are two versions of the 1D. The new 7D with its crop sensor, comprehensive autofocus system and faster frame rate is configured for sports and wildlife; and the new 5D's full frame sensor and better low light capability makes it the choice for portraits, landscape etc.

I can see that Canon is keen to provide a distinction between the two models, especially if it can persuade customers to purchase both. I suspect that in terms of image qaulity the difference between the two is less than you might suspect, especially as the 7DII has a newer sensor design. Yes, DOF and high ISO characteristics will vary, but for landscape many people will be putting their cameras on a tripod and shooting at base ISO, going to a higher ISO only if a high shutter speed is required due to subject movement.

You might want to hold off on the 5DIII purchase as IQ is similar to the 5DII, so unless you need a feature such as the 100% viewfinder or improved AF, you will not gain much. The 5DIII is getting a bit long in the tooth these days and has fallen behind the 24MP and 36MP senors in competing Nikon and Sony products, which has lead to rumours that it will be replaced later this year especially as Nikon/Sony are expected to go to 46MP fairly soon. When the 5DIII came out, 5DIIs were selling at bargain prices, so history might repeat itself if you are willing to wait and take a bit of a gamble.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/came ... n_5d4.html

It used to be the case that there were two versions of the 1-D models, with the 1D having an APS-H 1.3 crop sensor and the 1Ds being full frame, but the line merged into the full frame 1DX a couple of years ago. The 1DX has 18MP compared to 21MP on the 1DIII, which has lead to some pros sticking with the older camera.

Paul Heester wrote:Thats an interesting article that roughly sums up my own "fallacy" as it calls it. I thought I would one day upgrade to full frame but it was selling all my APS-C-only lenses and getting their full frame equivalents that has stopped me. I didnt see a way I could gradually move across. Its true that mirrorless cameras change the perspective of my fallacy over the last few years. The improvement of APS-C bodies has also closed the gap in terms of performance as well.

Ultimately, I will continue to shoot with my APS-C Canon 60D until it either breaks or I see a solid reason to upgrade to whatever camera is on the market in future that will meet my requirements.

I am not sure it was a "fallacy" as such. A few years ago there was an expectation that full frame would be the way forward, but technology has overtaken that view. The performance of the 28MP APS-C sensor in the Samsung NX1 has been compared with the full frame 36 MP Nikon D810 and Samsung appears to have nailed the AF as well, which until now has been a weak point for mirorless cameras. While most APS-C mirrorless cameras cannot quite match all aspects of full frame DSLR performance currently, the NX1 shows that this situation might not exist for much longer.

Thom Hogan describes people hanging onto their present cameras until they break as "last camera syndrome". The technology has been good enough for quite some while that the difference between a new model and what it replaced is marginal. Last year, I did consider selling off my Canon DSLR gear and replacing it with a mirrorless system, but the cost was going to quite high to replicate my DSLR setup and I would lose a lot of continuous AF capability. Not that I use C-AF much, but I like to know it is there for when I do.

The compromise I have reached is that I have invested in m43 kit, mostly low end stuff, as it is more easily carried around than my DSLR gear both in terms of weight and bulk. During 2013, my most frequently used camera was my 7D and that was the case in 2014 as well. However, I bought a second m43 body during 2014 and together both cameras accounted for more shots than the Canon. This ratio is reflected in the proportion of shots which I published during the year, with the two most successful coming from the same m43 camera and lens combo. My feeling is that this approach is working well for me, so I do not envisage anything changing in the near future. Like you, the manufacturers are going to have to come with something more than they have hitherto if I am going to tempted by an upgrade.

Mike Farley wrote:
You might want to hold off on the 5DIII purchase as IQ is similar to the 5DII, so unless you need a feature such as the 100% viewfinder or improved AF, you will not gain much. The 5DIII is getting a bit long in the tooth these days and has fallen behind the 24MP and 36MP senors in competing Nikon and Sony products, which has lead to rumours that it will be replaced later this year especially as Nikon/Sony are expected to go to 46MP fairly soon. When the 5DIII came out, 5DIIs were selling at bargain prices, so history might repeat itself if you are willing to wait and take a bit of a gamble.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/came ... n_5d4.html

More from Canon Rumors about three full frame cameras which Canon might be launching this year. To be taken with as much or as little salt as you deem necessary.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index. ... ic=24534.0

It does occur to me that one of the reasons for "last camera syndrome" has been Canon's conservative stance towards sensor technology, which has shown comparatively little progress since 2009, and the lack of response so far to the new technology introduced by Sony. Indeed, the same applies in respect of updates to its top end models in general. In terms of maintaining its #1 position, this does not seem to have harmed Canon, but neither has it encouraged people to upgrade and it must have cost them sales. There are rumours that Canon is building a new sensor manufacturing facility which will come online "soon", possibly in conjunction with a new range of mirrorless cameras. At this point, I might well have exceeded your daily salt intake by a substantial margin.

It's unlikely I'd be able to afford the MKIV when it's launched. And it's never going to be the right time to upgrade as there's always going to be something else coming along LOL. I could procrastinate for ever...

Rose wrote:It's unlikely I'd be able to afford the MKIV when it's launched. And it's never going to be the right time to upgrade as there's always going to be something else coming along LOL. I could procrastinate for ever...

It's your choice, of course, but there could be close out deals on the 5DIII when it is replaced similar to what happened with the 5DII when it was superseded. At that point you would know which camera you prefer once 5DIV prices inevitably drop after a few months. I have just seen the first UK price decrease on the 7DII, for example; granted it's not much at present, but it's an indication that supply and demand are beginning to level out.

Mind you, all this is speculation and Canon might disobligingly fail to launch the new camera at a time when you need it. Compared to the St Vitus' dance of Nikon or Sony, Canon's cameras are in production for much longer periods and even the shelf life of its low end models has increased in the last couple of years.

At the moment I'm looking at £1595 for the 5D and £1249 for the 7D, which I think is pretty hard to beat !

Rose wrote:At the moment I'm looking at £1595 for the 5D and £1249 for the 7D, which I think is pretty hard to beat !

They look like non official channel import prices? Panamoz currently has the 7DII at £1,220 and the 5DIII at £1,593. Both prices are lower still if you pay by bank transfer rather than credit card. Admittedly that is a more risky proposition, but the company has been around for a while and gets good reports on the interweb.

http://panamoz.com/index.php/hot-deals/ ... -only.html

http://panamoz.com/index.php/digital-ca ... -only.html

If you are going to buy an import, it might be worthwhile considering Hdew Cameras as they are based locally in Sutton. I know of at least one club member who has bought from them and been pleased. Their 7DII price is not the most competitive at the moment, but doubtless that will change. The situation is always fluid.

http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/canon-eos- ... -961-p.asp

http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/canon-eos- ... 2679-p.asp