Images That Do Better The Second Time Around

[Mike Farley]

When I wrote the announcement of the arrangements for submission of entries into the Digital Image of the Year competition, I did not expect to be proved correct in quite such a dramatic fashion about images possibly faring better with a different judge. Bill Yates winning shot in this year's Print of the Year scored just 7.5 first time out. Quite a remarkable turnaround which goes to show, if proof were actually needed, that there are indeed a variety of ways how a photograph can be assessed.

Kudos to Bill and congratulations on his win for seeing the picture's potential and sticking with it.

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[Rose]

It works the other way too of course...I had one image that scored 12 in last years monochrome comp... And then 7.5 in one of this season's monthly comps.

[Mike Farley]

Naturally that is a risk. The two trophy winnining images I referred to were both, in my opinion, marked lower than they deserved on the first occasion. Similarly, there are also times when a judge will see something in a shot which eludes me. It is a dangerous game trying to guess a judge's reaction, as they consistently surprise with their comments. While a high score is always pleasing, it is as well to be realistic as to whether or not the mark flattered, although it can sometimes be difficult to view our own work with the detachment that approach requires.

[Mike Farley]

To follow up on my previous post, I thought it would be worthwhile to describe my own thought processes when selecting my shots to enter into last night's Print of the Year competition as it might help others when deciding what to do for the forthcoming equivalent digital contest.

First off, I thought that there had been one stand out image by another member from last season's monthly competitions which I was convinced would win. In the event, it made it through the first cut and was held, but did not go any further. Affirmation of the subjectivity of image assessment and that judges will never lose their ability to surprise us.

Of my own shots, I had not entered the first round and had 15 from which to choose, with the original marks varying from 7 to 12, My policy in most rounds had been to enter two which I considered safe and one experimental. The latter were images which I liked, but which did not necessarily conform to what we usually see at club. There were four of these and the marks ranged from 7 to 9.5. The one which scored 7 was probably my favourite of these, but during post processing I had turned the volume up to 11 and rather over cooked it. On reflection, I am in agreement with the judge's comments which were helpful and will assist me to improve both the picture if I decide to resubmit it next season and my photography in general.

I then removed others which were alright but not necessarily my best work. In fact at this stage I did not follow my own advice and left out an image which had achieved 9.5, but which I felt had been rejected by the judge for a spurious reason. I suspect that it was one of those occasions where the judge simply had not liked the shot and looked for an alleged technical fault to dismiss it rather than on aesthetic grounds. (Judges, it's OK to say that you do not like something provided you can state why and successful images do not necessarily always have to be technically perfect.)

That left me with five prints and that point I called in the arbiter of all things whose taste is unquestionably impeccable. My wife. Joking aside, it is always worthwhile getting other opinions from people whose judgement you trust. During our discussion, another factor came into play, namely the other member's photo which I mentioned at the beginning. I had something a bit similar and felt that if it came down to a straight fight between them it would lose out. The other shot had done well, but neither of us were convinced that it would be to everyone's taste. The rest is history. One shot failed to make it through the initial selection, but the others did well enough.

[Rose]

Naturally that is a risk. The two trophy winnining images I referred to were both, in my opinion, marked lower than they deserved on the first occasion. Similarly, there are also times when a judge will see something in a shot which eludes me. It is a dangerous game trying to guess a judge's reaction, as they consistently surprise with their comments. While a high score is always pleasing, it is as well to be realistic as to whether or not the mark flattered, although it can sometimes be difficult to view our own work with the detachment that approach requires.

I agree entirely Mike - one will always incline to approve a judge's assessment when they mark your image highly ! LOL In this case I think it was simply a case second time around of the judge being 'agin' the subject, as he just kept going on about it and didn't comment on the technical aspects or composition in any way. It was remarkabale enough that others in the club came up to me afterwards and said as much too. I'm not vain enough to think it should necessarily have had another 12 but if the merits really were as described by the first judge who praised its B&W rendering, excellent range of tones, good representation of texture, capture of difficult light, and pleasing composition... it had to be worth at least a 10 !

[Mike Farley]

I agree entirely Mike - one will always incline to approve a judge's assessment when they mark your image highly ! LOL In this case I think it was simply a case second time around of the judge being 'agin' the subject, as he just kept going on about it and didn't comment on the technical aspects or composition in any way. It was remarkabale enough that others in the club came up to me afterwards and said as much too. I'm not vain enough to think it should necessarily have had another 12 but if the merits really were as described by the first judge who praised its B&W rendering, excellent range of tones, good representation of texture, capture of difficult light, and pleasing composition... it had to be worth at least a 10 !

Unfortunately, that's all part of the subjective nature of the beast. I think that there are very few judges, especially at club level, who can really read a picture and give a good assessment regardless of whether or not the image is to their personal taste. The worst example I have come across recently was a judge who admitted at the beginning of the evening that he did not like a particular style of picture and when one such came up, the sole critique was that it was an example of the type of image which they did not want to see. A low mark was awarded on that sole criterion. Very helpful. Often I find that an image is dismissed on technical grounds rather than being judged on the aesthetic, especially when the judge has failed to see the point of a picture and is something which happens all too frequently. The best judges give feedback which allow people to progress, the worst end up exposing their own ignorance and prejudices.

[Rose]

[quote="Mike Farley"]

Unfortunately, that's all part of the subjective nature of the beast. I think that there are very few judges, especially at club level, who can really read a picture and give a good assessment regardless of whether or not the image is to their personal taste. The worst example I have come across recently was a judge who admitted at the beginning of the evening that he did not like a particular style of picture and when one such came up, the sole critique was that it was an example of the type of image which they did not want to see. A low mark was awarded on that sole criterion. Very helpful.


Yep... I think that was mine ! LOL

[davidb]

I have often thought that I would like to enter the same three images in all the rounds of the DPI competition to get a wider opinion from the various judges in a year. (These could be entered in the monthly competition as say nos 4, 5 and 6 and although the judge would score them, they would not be eligible for the monthly distinctions nor count towards the annual result (nor the DPI of the Year Competition)). The same, I suppose, could be done for the print competitions.

Any thoughts?

[Mike Farley]

I have often thought that I would like to enter the same three images in all the rounds of the DPI competition to get a wider opinion from the various judges in a year. (These could be entered in the monthly competition as say nos 4, 5 and 6 and although the judge would score them, they would not be eligible for the monthly distinctions nor count towards the annual result (nor the DPI of the Year Competition)). The same, I suppose, could be done for the print competitions.

Any thoughts?

Hi David

The club has a non repetition rule for the monthly competitions, with the objectives being twofold. The first is to encourage members to take photographs, rather than recycling existing or very similar ones in different permutations. The other is to prevent audience boredom in seeing the same images too frequently. Some repetition is permitted. A shot can be resubmitted on one further occasion in a substantially amended form in the same category as it was originally entered (i.e. DPI or print) provided it did not receive a certificate. It can also be shown again in the other category. Neither of these can occur in the same season, so a shot will only be seen once per season in the monthly competitions.

Whilst to an extent it is an interesting idea to pitch the judges against each other and observe the variations, there would be inevitably be a level of tedium by the end of the season. It would also be dependent on the quality of the images. An average shot is more likely to be assessed similarly than one which usually scores well but does not find favour with the occasional judge. We have seen examples of that happening, in both directions, in the recent Print of the Year and no doubt it will occur again in next week's Projected Image contest. There is also the matter of how many images can be comfortably assessed in an evening. Having more than 60 - 70 per night means that there is little time to comment on each shot and people would get less benefit from feedback on new work.

Opportunities do already exist for multiple assessment of images. In the same season, it would be possible to enter a shot into a one-off competition such as monochrome or nature, a round of the monthly competition, image of the year and the exhibition. In a subsequent season, the picture could then be entered in the alternative category of the monthly contest and image of the year. There is also the Image Critique section of this forum to get feedback.

I hope this helps. What do others think?

[davidc]

I tihnk the forum is a great place to pre-submit images for "judging" by everyone else here before putting them into actual competition. Although people may prefer to keep entries secret, at the end of the day we cannot control what the judge has a personal preference for and what other people submit so it makes sense to get as much feedback as possible before putting an image into competition. That way you have submitted your best image and what happens next is, to all intents and purposes, outside of your control.

For instance, you may be worried if you put up a good landscape photo up for critique on the forums then another member can use a "better" landscape shot to get more points. That logic doesn't really hold though because neither member can predict when an image will be used and there's no reason why two similar types of image can't both score well. In all eventualities, posting something here first improves your chances of minor flaws being corrected beforehand and also allows for something you won't get in a competition - the chance to incrementally improve and repost images as you take people's advice on board. Even if you could submit the same image in EVERY competition, you won't get as many bites at the cherry as you can by putting it here

At the end of the day though, the best chance to improve your photography is to get out there and take pictures - getting judge feedback (or club colleague feedback) and applying tweaks can only go so far, get out there and take the beautiful pictures you need in the first place then come here for advice on the final polish!